5th Public Examination of Joan of Arc: Three Popes Mentioned

Thursday, March 1st, in the same place, the Bishop and 58 Assessors present.
In their presence, We summoned and required Jeanne simply and absolutely to take her oath to speak the truth on that which should be asked her.
“I am ready,” she replied, “as I have already declared to you, to speak the truth on all I know touching this Case; but I know many things which do not touch on this Case, and of which there is no need to speak to you. I will speak willingly and in all truth on all that touches this Case.”
We again summoned and required her; and she replied:
“What I know in truth touching the Case, I will tell willingly.”
And in this wise did she swear, her hands on the Holy Gospels. Then she said: “On what I know touching this Case, I will speak the truth willingly; I will tell you as much as I would to the Pope of Rome, if I were before him.”
Then she was examined as follows:
“What do you say of our Lord the Pope? and whom do you believe to be the true Pope?”
“Are there two of them?”
“Did you not receive a letter from the Count d’Armagnac, asking you which of the three Pontiffs he ought to obey?” (1)….(The “three Pontiffs” referred to are Martin V (Colonna), the real and acknowledged Pope; the schismatic, Clement VIII; and a mere pretender, Benedict XIV, who was supported only by one Cardinal. The Schism was practically at an end at the time of this letter, as Clement had abdicated a month earlier (July 26th). Clement VIII is the true title, though called Clement VII in Count d’Armagnac’s letter.)
“The Count did in fact write to me on this subject. I replied, among other things, that when I should be at rest, in Paris or elsewhere, I would give him an answer. I was just at that moment mounting my horse when I sent this reply.”
At this juncture, We ordered to be read the copy of the Count’s letter and of Jeanne’s reply, which are thus expressed :
“My very dear Lady – I humbly commend myself to you, and pray, for God’s sake, that, considering the divisions which are at this present time in the Holy Church Universal on the question of the Popes, for there are now three contending for the Papacy one residing at Rome, calling himself Martin V, whom all Christian Kings obey; another, living at Paniscole, in the Kingdom of Valence, who calls himself Clement VII; the third, no one knows where he lives, unless it be the Cardinal Saint Etienne and some few people with him, but he calls himself Pope Benedict XIV. The first, who styles himself Pope Martin, was elected at Constance with the consent of all Christian nations; he who is called Clement was elected at Paniscole, after the death of Pope Benedict XIII, by three of his Cardinals; the third, who dubs himself Benedict XIV, was elected secretly at Paniscole, even by the Cardinal Saint Etienne. You will have the goodness to pray Our Savior Jesus Christ that by His infinite Mercy He may by you declare to us which of the three named is Pope in truth, and whom it pleases Him that we should obey, now and henceforward, whether he who is called Martin, he who is called Clement, or he who is called Benedict; and in whom we are to believe, if secretly, or by any dissembling, or publicly; for we are all ready to do the will and pleasure of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yours in all things, COUNT D’ARMAGNAC.”
Jeanne’s Reply.
“Jhesus Maria.”
“Count d’Armagnac, my very good and dear friend, I, Jeanne, the Maid, acquaint you that your message has come before me, which tells me that you have sent at once to know from me which of the three Popes, mentioned in your memorial, you should believe. This thing I cannot tell you truly at present, until I am at rest in Paris or elsewhere; for I am now too much hindered by affairs of war; but when you hear that I am in Paris, send a message to me and I will inform you in truth whom you should believe, and what I shall know by the counsel of my Righteous and Sovereign Lord, the King of all the World, and of what you should do to the extent of my power. I commend you to God. May God have you in His keeping! Written at Compiegne, August 22nd.”
Then the Inquiry proceeded thus:
“Is this really the reply that you made?”
“I think that I might have made this answer in part, but not all.”
“Did you say that you might know, by the counsel of the King of Kings, what the Count should hold on this subject ?”
“I know nothing about it.”
“Had you any doubt about whom the Count should obey?”

“I did not know how to inform him on this question, as to whom he should obey, because the Count himself asked to know whom God wished him to obey. But for myself, I hold and believe that we should obey our Lord the Pope who is in Rome. I told the messenger of the Count some things which are not in this copy; and, if the messenger had not gone off immediately, he would have been thrown into the water – not by me, however. As to the Count’s inquiry, desiring to know whom God wished him to obey, I answered that I did not know; but I sent him messages on several things which have not been put in writing. As for me, I believe in our Lord the Pope who is at Rome.”
“Why did you write that you would give an answer elsewhere if you believed in the Pope who is at Rome?”
“That answer had reference to other things than the matter of the sovereign Pontiffs.”
“Did you say that on the matter of the three sovereign Pontiffs you would have counsel?”
“I never wrote nor gave command to write on the matter of the three sovereign Pontiffs.” And this answer she supported by oath.
“Are you in the habit of putting the Names ‘Jhesus Maria,’ with a cross, at the top of your letters?”
“On some I put it, on others not; sometimes I put a cross as a sign for those of my party to whom I wrote so that they should not do as the letters said.”
Here a letter was read from Jeanne to our Lord the King, to the Duke of Bedford, and others, of the following tenor :
“Jhesus Maria.”
“King of England; and you, Duke of Bedford, who call yourself Regent of the Kingdom of France; you, William de la Pole, Earl of Suffolk; John, Lord Talbot; and you, Thomas, Lord Scales, who call yourselves Lieutenants to the said Duke of Bedford: give satisfaction to the King of Heaven: give up to the Maid, who is sent hither by God, the King of Heaven, the keys of all the good towns in France which you have taken, and broken into. She is come here by the order of God to reclaim the Blood Royal. She is quite ready to make peace, if you are willing to give her satisfaction, by giving and paying back to France what you have taken. And as for you, archers, companions-in-arms, gentlemen and others who are before the town of Orleans, return to your own countries, by God’s order; and if this be not done, then hear the message of the Maid, who will shortly come upon you, to your very great hurt. King of England, I am a Chieftain of war and, if this be not done, where so ever I find your followers in France, I willmake them leave, willingly or unwillingly; if they will not obey, I will have them put to death. I am sent here by God, the King of Heaven, body for body, to drive them all out of the whole of France. And if they will obey, I will have mercy on them. And do not think to yourselves that you will get possession of the realm of France from God the King of Heaven, Son of the Blessed Mary; for King Charles will gain it, the true heir: and God, the King of Heaven, so wills it, and it is revealed to him [the King] by the Maid, and he will enter Paris with a good company. If you will not believe the message of God and of the Maid and act aright, in whatsoever place we find you we will enter therein and make so great a disturbance that for a thousand years none in France will be so great. And believe surely that the King of Heaven will send greater power to the Maid, to her and her good men-at-arms, than you can bring to the attack; and, when it comes to blows, we shall see who has the better right from the God of Heaven. You, Duke of Bedford, the Maid prays and enjoins you, that you do not come to grievous hurt. If you will give her satisfactory pledges, you may yet join with her, so that the French may do the fairest deed that has ever yet been done for Christendom. And answer, if you wish to make peace in the City of Orleans; if this be not done, you may be shortly reminded of it, to your very great hurt. Written this Tuesday in Holy Week, March 22nd, 1428.”
“Do you know this letter ?”
“Yes, excepting three words. In place of ‘give up to the Maid,’ it should be ‘give up to the King.’ The words ‘Chieftain of war’ and ‘body for body’ were not in the letter I sent. None of the Lords ever dictated these letters to me; it was I myself alone who dictated them before sending them. Nevertheless, I always showed them to some of my party. Before seven years are passed, the English will lose a greater wager than they have already done at Orleans; they will lose everything in France. (2)….(The English lost Paris in 1436.) The English will have in France a greater loss than they have ever had, and that by a great victory which God will send to the French.”
“How do you know this?”
“I know it well by revelation, which has been made to me, and that this will happen within seven years; and I am sore vexed that it is deferred so long. I know it by revelation, as clearly as I know that you are before me at this moment.”
“When will this happen?”
“I know neither the day nor the hour.”
“In what year will it happen?”
“You will not have any more. Nevertheless, I heartily wish it might be before Saint John’s Day.”
“Did you not say that this would happen before Martinmas, in winter?”
“I said that before Martinmas many things would be seen, and that the English might perhaps be overthrown.”
“What did you say to John Grey, your keeper, on the subject of the Feast of Saint Martin?”
“I have told you.”
“Through whom did you know that this would happen?”
“Through Saint Catherine and Saint Margaret.”
“Was Saint Gabriel with Saint Michael when he came to you?”
“I do not remember.”
“Since last Tuesday, have you had any converse with Saint Catherine and Saint Margaret?”
“Yes, but I do not know at what time.”
“What day?”
“Yesterday and today ; there is never a day that I do not hear them.”
“Do you always see them in the same dress?”
“I see them always under the same form, and their heads are richly crowned. I do not speak of the rest of their clothing: I know nothing of their dresses.”
“How do you know whether the object that appears to you is male or female?”
“I know well enough. I recognize them by their voices, as they revealed themselves to me; I know nothing but by the revelation and order of God.”
“What part of their heads do you see?”
“The face.”
“These saints who show themselves to you, have they any hair?”
“It is well to know they have.”
“Is there anything between their crowns and their hair?”
“No.”
“Is their hair long and hanging down?”
“I know nothing about it. I do not know if they have arms or other members. They speak very well and in very good language; I hear them very well.”
“How do they speak if they have no members?”
“I refer me to God. The voice is beautiful, sweet, and low; it speaks in the French tongue.”
“Does not Saint Margaret speak English?”
“Why should she speak English, when she is not on the English side?”
“On these crowned heads, were there rings? – in the ears or elsewhere?”
“I know nothing about it.”
“Have you any rings yourself?”
[Addressing herself to Us, the Bishop:] “You have one of mine; give it back to me. The Burgundians have another of them. I pray you, if you have my ring, show it to me.”
“Who gave you the ring which the Burgundians [now] have?”
“My father or my mother. I think the Names ‘Jhesus Maria’ are engraved on it. I do not know who had them written there; there is not, I should say, any stone in the ring; it was given to me at Domremy. It was my brother who gave me the other – the one you have.”
[Continuing to address herself to Us, the Bishop:] “I charge you to give it to the Church. I never cured any one with any of my rings.”
“Did Saint Catherine and Saint Margaret speak to you under the tree of which mention has been made ?”

“I know nothing of it.”
“Did they speak to you at the spring, which is near the tree?”
“Yes, I have heard them there ; but what they said then, I do not know.”
“What did they promise you, there or elsewhere?”
“They have never promised me anything, except by God’s leave.”
” But still, what promises have they made to you?”
“That is not in your Case: not at all. Upon other subjects, they told me that my King would be re-established in his Kingdom, whether his enemies willed it or no; they told me also that they would lead me to Paradise: I begged it of them, indeed.”
“Did you have any other promise from them?”
“There was another, but I will not tell it; that does not touch on the Case. In three months I will tell you the other promise.”
“Have your Voices said that before three months you will be delivered from prison?”
“That is not in your Case. Nevertheless I do not know when I shall be delivered. But those who wish to send me out of the world may well go before me.”
“Has not your counsel told you that you will be delivered from your actual prison?”
“Speak to me in three months, and I will answer. Moreover, ask of those present, upon oath, if this touches on the Trial.”
We, the said Bishop, did then take the opinion of those present: and all considered that this did touch on the Trial.
“I have already told you, you shall not know all. One day I must be delivered. But I wish to have leave to tell you the day: it is for this I ask delay.”
“Have your Voices forbidden you to speak the truth?”
“Do you want me to tell you what concerns the King of France? There are a number of things that do not touch on the Case. I know well that my King will regain the Kingdom of France. I know it as well as I know that you are before me, seated in judgment. I should die if this revelation did not comfort me every day.”
“What have you done with your mandrake?”(4)….(The mandrake was a part of the accepted paraphernalia of a sorcerer. It was kept wrapped in a silk or linen cloth, and was supposed to preserve its owner from poverty. Brother Richard had recently preached a sermon against them (April, 1429); and many had been burned in consequence.)
“I never have had one. But I have heard that there is one near our home, though I have never seen it. I have heard it is a dangerous and evil thing to keep. I do not know for what it is [used].”
“Where is this mandrake of which you have heard?”
“I have heard that it is in the earth, near the tree of which I spoke before; but I do not know the place. Above this mandrake, there was, it is said, a hazel tree.”
“What have you heard said was the use of this mandrake?”
“To make money come: but I do not believe it. My Voice never spoke to me of that.”
“In what likeness did Saint Michael appear to you?”
“I did not see a crown: I know nothing of his dress.”
“Was he naked?”
“Do you think God has not wherewithal to clothe him?”
“Had he hair?”
“Why should it have been cut off? I have not seen Saint Michael since I left the Castle of Crotoy. I do not see him often. I do not know if he has hair.”
“Has he a balance ?” [weight scales- St. Michael is often depicted holding them]
“I know nothing about it. It was a great joy to see him ; it seemed to me, when I saw him, that I was not in mortal sin. Saint Catherine and Saint Margaret were pleased from time to time to receive my confession, each in turn. If I am in mortal sin, it is without my knowing it.”
“When you confessed, did you think you were in mortal sin?”
“I do not know if I am in mortal sin, and, if it please God, I will never so be; I do not believe I have done its works; nor, please God, have I ever done or ever will do deeds which charge my soul!”
“What sign did you give your King that you came from God?”
“I have always answered that you will not drag this from my lips. Go and ask it of him.”
“Have you sworn not to reveal what shall be asked of you touching the Trial?”
“I have already told you that I will tell you nothing of what concerns my King. Thereon I will not speak.”

“Do you not know the sign that you gave to the King?”
“You will not know it from me.”
“But this touches on the Trial.”
“Of what I have promised to keep secret, I will tell you nothing. I have already said, even here, that I could not tell you without perjury.”
“To whom have you promised this?”
“To Saint Catherine and Saint Margaret ; and this had been shown to the King. I promised them, without their asking it of me, of my own free-will, of myself, because too many people might have questioned me had I not promised it to my Saints.”
“When you showed your sign to the King, were you alone with him?”
“I do not take account of any one else, although there were many people near.”
“When you showed this sign to the King, did you see a crown on his head?”
“I cannot tell you without perjury.”
“Had your King a crown at Reims?”
“I think my King took with joy the crown that he had at Reims; but another, much richer, would have been given him later. He acted thus to hurry on his work, at the request of the people of the town of Reims, to avoid too long a charge upon them of the soldiers. If he had waited, he would have had a crown a thousand times more rich.”
“Have you seen this richer crown ?”
“I cannot tell you without incurring perjury; and, though I have not seen it, I have heard that it is rich and valuable to a degree.”
This done, We put an end to the interrogation and postponed the remainder to Saturday next, 8 o’clock in the morning, in the same place, summoning all the Assessors to be present.

For more readings, try books by Rex Hurst.